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Kommentar von SoooWhoCares

Druid crits = 50% chance to get an 35% AP (+mastery) strong shield.

Mastery clarification:
179.28004 points of mastery rating = 1 point of mastery
1 point increases the absorb value by 4%.
These 4% are not added to the 35% but multiplied with them.
-> 35% * (1 + 0,04 * mastery points) = shield absorb.

You could also say each point of mastery increases the 35% shield by additional 1.4%. It's the same.

The confusing thing is what the game tells you. When you mouseover your mastery in the talent tree it tell's you only the 4% * mastery points value. So with let's say with 8,42 mastery points you'll read 8,42 * 4% = 33,68% as the absorb value (rounded down to 33% in the tooltip). The real value is 35% * (1 + 33,68%) = 46,788%.
That amount of AP is converted to shield absorb power. Not the 33% of the mouseover on mastery.

For the shield absorb value the interesting effects are...
AP-Modificators:

Rache (Feral talent tree, stacking -> 1/3 of hit strength and falls off over time each second no damage is taken which takes around 20s to reach a zero value)
Aggression (Feral talent tree, 25% AP)

+20% AP Buff
-> Any Paladin: Segen der Macht
-> Enh Shaman: Entfesselte Wut
-> MM-Hunter: Aura des Volltreffers

More AP means more damage output (+threat) and a higher absorb value for Wilde Verteidigung.

Stamina Modificators:

Lederspezialisierung (+5% stamina)
Mal der Wildnis (+5% stamina)
Herz der Wildnis (+6% stamina)
Bärengestalt (+20% stamina)
Runenschriftrolle der Seelenstärke II (doesn't stack with priest's buff)
Fläschchen der Stahlhaut
...and of course certain types of buff food.

Machtwort: Seelenstärke (Priest)

More stamina means a higher vengeance cap as well as a better selfheal via Rudelführer at a maximum of once every 6 sec.

Effects that increase your total health by a point-valua like Fläschchen des Steinbluts or Heilung der Ahnen have no influence on vengeance or the vengeance cap. (Tested)

Before doing that some knowledge:
-the description states "10% of MaxHP" as vengeance cap which is wrong (google that to find proof)
-1 stamina grants 14 hitpoints without any modificators
-the first 20 stamina points your character gets each grant only 1 hitpoint
-even without any stamina each character has something called 'base health' which is a point value that's added to your hitpoint pool and increases per level

To get your baseHP:
Open your character panel, mouseover stamina and read how much health this stamina grants you.
Then scroll up to your health and subtract. That's your baseHP. I'm not quite sure if baseHP has little differences between races. Mine is 39533 als Night Elf.

As stated above: "10% of MaxHP" is not the vengeance cap. It really is:
Total stamina in bear form + 10% of baseHP (Tested)
That means a lower value than the "10% of MaxHP".

For example:
Bear stamina of 8500 -> Vengeance cap = 8500 + 10% of baseHP (I'll take my value of 39533 here) -> 8500 + 3953,3 = 12453 as the maximum value that your vengeance can stack to.

That is only the tooltip value which will then be buffed by Aggression and other effects.

Total AP:
Bear AP with all buffs + (vengeance cap multiplied by all active ap buffs)
-> CharPanelBearAP + 12453 * 1.25 * {1.20 (Paladin / Enh Shaman / MM Hunter)}

Calculate your total AP and then multiply them with 1.4%. That's how much an additional mastery point (179.28004 rating points) will add to your shield absorb value.

Example:
35k totalAP -> 1.4% of that are: 490
So 1 point mastery let's you absorb an additional 490 HP.

For reference:
176.7189 dodge rating grant you 1% dodge and 243.58281085 agility do the same. (see: Link)
Choose what suits your playstyle more: Dodge via agility / reforging or mastery but for god's sake not only stamina (*dramatic healer experience*).
I stacked agility along with agi / stam gems with the logic that a dodged attack won't hurt the shield at all.
Also it scales by too tiny values to go for mastery in my opinion.

Druid:
-50% proc chance upon a melee crit
-shield absorb scales with attack power and mastery
-1 point of mastery adds 1.4% to the shield absorb value
-doesn't stack
-can frequently be renewed
-trying to build up a shield requires a crit which will trigger the 4% MaxHP selfheal once every 6s
-> The Druid's strength is to renew the shield far more frequently which requires 2-3 enemies of the same level for enough rage or 1 dungeon/raid boss.

Death Knight:
-shield procs on each Death Strike, even if the hit misses, is dodged or parried
-shield absorb scales with the by Death Strike healed value, mastery and hitpoints
-1 point of mastery adds 6,25% of the heal (10.15% to 29% of MaxHP are healed, depending on 5s inc damage) to shield absorb
-stacks
-can only be renewed when there are runes available to do this (45% proc luck)
-trying to build up or stack a shield will always trigger a heal, that heals 10.15% to 29% of MaxHP
-> The Death Knight's strength is that each shield proc goes hand in hand with a heal which allows him to do both: Selfheal and negate incoming damage.

Current Problems:
-Druids get leather gear with haste rating sometimes. Haste rating is currently useless for tanks and should be reforged to dodge / mastery.
Only 40% of a value can be reforged.

Kommentare

Kommentar von wingman

There's 3 bugs with this on the current ptr build:

1) there's a delay between the crit and the savage defense proc, as much as .5 seconds.
2) when you crit multiple times from the same attack (maul or swipe both work, but obviously swipe has a better chance) you'll potentially have the shield completely removed and never trigger.
3) a shield can absorb multiple attacks if the attacks come at the same time.

Kommentar von 11277

Maybe it's obvious but does Savage Defense stack with AP-bonus triggers? Such as Mongoose procs etc.?

Kommentar von samarium

Do the critting Lacerate ticks from Primal Gore proc bear bubbles?

Kommentar von 94097

Decided to test this out on PTR ... I was quite intrigued w/ the results

Heroic Underbog ... only things healing me are: Mark of Conquest, Enchant Weapon - Lifeward, Imp Leader of the Pack, and Glyphed Frenzied Regeneration (used towards the end)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3146776910456669367

Kommentar von 347833

Among the other reasons to create this ability, this appears to be a counter-balance to some other 3.1 druid changes that encourage the stacking of +Crit over +AtkPwr, particularly Primal Gore (https://www.wowhead.com/cata/spell=63503). You need enough crit to get reliable SD procs, but also enough AP for SD to be useful; where's the sweet spot?

Kommentar von 235419

Testing this in an AoE situation with good ole swipe and every Global Cooldown is was proccing. (Occasionally inbetween GCD's too due to maul spam also critting)

The tradeoff for having this ability for me was 2k health and 4k armor. And I'd gladly give up those numbers for this ability. It's insanely good.

Maul, Mangle, Swipe, Lacerate (and the dot crits) can proc this. Giving druids this pseudo block ability MAY make us overpowered in certain areas.

Kommentar von Arador

Proccing issues aside, I've found this to be a pretty useful addition to a Bear tank's arsenal. With a decent crit rate (and enough hit / expertise, also assuming infinite rage) this ability will be up for the majority of the time. So let's crunch some numbers.

Assume you're tanking a boss that hits for 20,000 damage, unmitigated. With 30k armor you'll have roughly 65% damage mitigation, meaning that the hit would actually do 7000 damage. If you have 4000 attack power, then a Savage Defense proc will mitigate 1000 damage, taking the aforementioned hit down to 6000 damage.

What this means is that you were effectively hit as if you had 70% damage mitigation, or almost 40k armor. That is a pretty significant bonus. Of course, this changes depending on the situation. If a boss hits twice as hard (so 40k unmitigated, 14k mitigated), then your SD proc will only act as if you had 67.5% damage reduction, or a 2.5% DR gain vs the 5% DR gain in the first calculation.

Also, the big problem with this ability is that it is useless against magical attacks. Specifically in this regard bear tanks are now noticeably weaker than other tanks - these have innate damage reduction from spells, while bears no longer have the inflated health pool to compensate.

Kommentar von 75152

Bears are last in the tanking pecking order... I have been passed over for a tank with real tanking abilities. very sad day for bear tanks indeed

Kommentar von Arador

@pedter

So as you've pointed out, the only class that has less innate magic damage reduction than druids are death knights. Also, you guys have forgotten to mention ardent defender and blessing of santuary.

Let's consider active damage reduction abilities as well:

- Death knights may use icebound fortitude for 18 seconds (talented) every minute, unbreakable armor for 20 seconds every 2 minutes, and 7 seconds (glyphed) of anti-magic shell every 45 seconds.
- Warriors may use spell reflection to avoid many spells. Also, they have the ability to use shield wall for an exta 60% damage reduction for 12 seconds every 4 minutes (talented).
- Paladins may use divine protection for 12 seconds every 2 minutes (talented).
- Druids may use barkskin for 12 seconds every minute.

Out of all these active abilities, barkskin provides the least amount of spell reduction (icebound fortitude is the same, but lasts longer with talents), but may be used more often. Deathknights can compensate for their weaker damage reduction with many more abilities.

In short, I wouldn't call druids "gimmicked" in terms of magical damage reduction, but they are certainly weaker in this regard compared to warriors and paladins. Druids still have a health advantage due to better multipliers than the other tanking classes, so it mostly evens out. I just wanted to point out that druids are generally more favored for physical encounters than magical encounters, and for physical damage savage defense is definitely a boon.

Kommentar von 416587

ok so i dont usually sign up and reply to forums but um.... am i the only person who is reading Improved Spell Reflection properly?

not a single person has clued in that it reduces your chance to BE HIT BY SPELLS
NOT damage reduction upon being hit by one.

hope i dont break your math too much :P

Kommentar von 435571

Is it True that You can't have https://www.wowhead.com/cata/spell=62600 and https://www.wowhead.com/cata/spell=22842 on at the same time?

Kommentar von 338077

Hm...this is really quite useful. A well geared druid gets around 40% or so chance to crit. Defense and Resilence added, let's say about 35% chance on classes such as warriors and paladins. With their dodge, parry and block added up, it's around an additional 25% less to hit(approx. guess). So you hit 75% of the time. 35 x .75 = 25.6%. In Dire Bear Form, melee attack speed is 1.36. Every four attacks. 6 seconds per critical, average. With Mangle, it's more often, as it is instant cast. Every 5 seconds. With Berserk, every 3 seconds. A Warrior Two-Handing, with Infected Wounds stacked 2 times, they attack every 2 seconds.

At level 80, attack power in Bear Form, buffed is around 4k. 1k damage reduction. A warrior deals average 1.5k with the best weapons in 3.1 retail. Only 7k against Dire Bear Armor. Armor penetration, around 25%(most warriors don't stack penetration :P) Let's say 1k damage. One melee every 2k secs, remember. With Berserk, that reduces almost all damage against a warrior. 25% dodge, let's say. 3/4 hits actually find their mark. Perhaps 5% parry. So, in 20 seconds, Around 8 hits. 8k damage, versus 4k damage reduction. Half damage done overall. Calculated, every chance on attack event taken off, Resilence, Defense, penetration added. A big difference from the original. Let's say 35% before.

Kommentar von 532753

"that's like saying x% Avoidance and x% Mitigation should be treated as the same thing by tanks because over a long period of time, they reduce the same amount of damage. Trust me, any tank worth beans will not treat Avoidance and Mitigation as the same thing. ... For example, put a tank with 75% avoidance and 25% mitigation against a hard hitting (relative to total hp) boss. Then put a tank with 25% avoidance and 75% mitigation against the same boss."

There is no such thing as a tank with 75% avoidance and 25% mitigation. I realize you are speaking theoretically but the theory doesn't matter if it can't happen.

Tanks might be able to swap up to 3% avoidance for 3% mitigation (or vice versa). When you're dealing with small amounts and when you're considering the benefit outside the context of a specific encounter there is very little difference between the benefits of avoidance and mitigation.

Kommentar von Foresee

For non endgame, this is an awesome talent. I remember leveling my Druid as cat, but if i pulled 3-5 mobs (accidentally or on purpose) I'd get a regrowth and rejuv off, then pop into bear and spam swipe, which means this will proc a respectable amount. That + Imp Leader of the Pack made it nice and easy to keep my HP up.

Kommentar von 681136

Absorbs DO NOT interfere with vengeance.

Source

Kommentar von 70784

This actually sounds quite nice.

Ghost Crawler Writes - Vengeance diminishes at half the rate if you avoid the attack. Furthermore, absorbs don't count at all -- if you absorb an attack, it counts as if you were hit.

So if I am reading this right, Vengeance will still accumulate even if you "absorb" an attack. Still important to note that Savage Defense will absorb 65% of your attack power. The more Vengeance the more attack power you get from being attacked.

I hear of Druids in PoS farming the Hilt item, and soloing mobs in there and coming out with full health from iLoTP and due to help from this spell Savage Defense.

Things are looking up ;)

Kommentar von Teyr

also keep in mind that the tooltip on this ability now says:

"Each time you deal a non-periodic critical strike while in Bear Form."

which is a bit of a nerf.... this used to proc off of lacerate, and thrash dots... not the case anymore...

Kommentar von 629499

It doesn't say it absorbs damage from a hit now. Does this mean it will operate like a normal shield (Blood Shield), and if so will it stack?

Kommentar von Elpizo

As a new bear tank, thers one thing I want to know about this.

Does Savage Defense scale with Vengeance? the tooltip says 35% of your attack power but is that static or current at the time of the proc?

Kommentar von razisgosu

Yes it stacks with your total attack power. It would be worthless if it was base attack power.

Kommentar von xmuppet

The combat log for this event has 3 more parameters than the standard SPELL_AURA_xxx combat log event. The last 3 are new.

5/19 21:07:48.359 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x01800000025F9C9F,"Bennu",0x514,0x01800000025F9C9F,"Bennu",0x514,62606,"Savage Defense",0x8,BUFF,14337,0,0
5/19 21:07:35.109 SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01800000025F9C9F,"Bennu",0x514,0x01800000025F9C9F,"Bennu",0x514,62606,"Savage Defense",0x8,BUFF,12457,0,0
5/19 21:07:35.937 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x01800000025F9C9F,"Bennu",0x514,0x01800000025F9C9F,"Bennu",0x514,62606,"Savage Defense",0x8,BUFF,0,0,0

The SPELL_AURA_APPLIED extra parameters are
The SPELL_AURA_REFRESH extra parameters are .
The SPELL_AURA_REMOVED extra parameters are .

Edit:
The first of the three parameters is the amount of "shield" remaining. This is the same as Power word: Shield.

Kommentar von SoooWhoCares

Druid crits = 50% chance to get an 35% AP (+mastery) strong shield.

Mastery clarification:
179.28004 points of mastery rating = 1 point of mastery
1 point increases the absorb value by 4%.
These 4% are not added to the 35% but multiplied with them.
-> 35% * (1 + 0,04 * mastery points) = shield absorb.

You could also say each point of mastery increases the 35% shield by additional 1.4%. It's the same.

The confusing thing is what the game tells you. When you mouseover your mastery in the talent tree it tell's you only the 4% * mastery points value. So with let's say with 8,42 mastery points you'll read 8,42 * 4% = 33,68% as the absorb value (rounded down to 33% in the tooltip). The real value is 35% * (1 + 33,68%) = 46,788%.
That amount of AP is converted to shield absorb power. Not the 33% of the mouseover on mastery.

For the shield absorb value the interesting effects are...
AP-Modificators:

Rache (Feral talent tree, stacking -> 1/3 of hit strength and falls off over time each second no damage is taken which takes around 20s to reach a zero value)
Aggression (Feral talent tree, 25% AP)

+20% AP Buff
-> Any Paladin: Segen der Macht
-> Enh Shaman: Entfesselte Wut
-> MM-Hunter: Aura des Volltreffers
-> Blood DK: Stärke der Monstrosität

More AP means more damage output (+threat) and a higher absorb value for Wilde Verteidigung.

Stamina Modificators:

Lederspezialisierung (+5% stamina)
Mal der Wildnis (+5% stamina)
Herz der Wildnis (+6% stamina)
Bärengestalt (+20% stamina)
Runenschriftrolle der Seelenstärke II (doesn't stack with priest's buff)
Fläschchen der Stahlhaut
...and of course certain types of buff food.

BM-Hunter Seelenstärke der Qiraji
Priest Machtwort: Seelenstärke
Destru Warlock Blutpakt
Warrior Befehlsruf

More stamina means a higher vengeance cap as well as a better selfheal via Rudelführer at a maximum of once every 6 sec.

Effects that increase your total health by a point-value like Fläschchen des Steinbluts or Heilung der Ahnen have no influence on vengeance or the vengeance cap. (Tested)

Before doing that some knowledge:
-the description states "10% of MaxHP" as vengeance cap which is wrong (google that to find proof)
-1 stamina grants 14 hitpoints without any modificators
-the first 20 stamina points your character gets each grant only 1 hitpoint
-even without any stamina each character has something called 'base health' which is a point value that's added to your hitpoint pool and increases per level

To get your baseHP:
Open your character panel, mouseover stamina and read how much health this stamina grants you.
Then scroll up to your health and subtract. That's your baseHP. I'm not quite sure if baseHP has little differences between races. Mine is 39533 als Night Elf.

As stated above: "10% of MaxHP" is not the vengeance cap. It really is:
Total stamina in bear form + 10% of baseHP (Tested)
That means a lower value than the "10% of MaxHP".

For example:
Bear stamina of 8500 -> Vengeance cap = 8500 + 10% of baseHP (I'll take my value of 39533 here) -> 8500 + 3953,3 = 12453 as the maximum value that your vengeance can stack to.

That is only the tooltip value which will then be buffed by Aggression and other effects.

Total AP:
Bear AP with all buffs + (vengeance cap multiplied by all active ap buffs)
-> CharPanelBearAP + 12453 * 1.25 * {1.20 (Paladin / Enh Shaman / MM Hunter)}

Calculate your total AP and then multiply them with 1.4%. That's how much an additional mastery point (179.28004 rating points) will add to your shield absorb value.

Example:
35k totalAP -> 1.4% of that are: 490
So 1 point mastery let's you absorb an additional 490 HP.

For reference:
176.7189 dodge rating grant you 1% dodge and 243.58281085 agility do the same. (see: Link)
Choose what suits your playstyle more: Dodge via agility / reforging or mastery but for god's sake not only stamina (*dramatic healer experience*).
I stacked agility along with agi / stam gems with the logic that a dodged attack won't hurt the shield at all.
Also it scales by too tiny values to go for mastery in my opinion.

Druid:
-50% proc chance upon a melee crit
-shield absorb scales with attack power and mastery
-1 point of mastery adds 1.4% AP to the shield absorb value
-doesn't stack
-can frequently be renewed
-trying to build up a shield requires a crit which will trigger the 4% MaxHP selfheal once every 6s
-> The Druid's strength is to renew the shield far more frequently which requires 2-3 enemies of the same level for enough rage or 1 dungeon/raid boss.

Death Knight:
-shield procs on each Death Strike, even if the hit misses, is dodged or parried
-shield absorb scales with the by Death Strike healed value, mastery and hitpoints
-1 point of mastery adds 6,25% of the heal (10.15% to 29% of MaxHP are healed, depending on 5s inc damage) to shield absorb
-stacks
-can only be renewed when there are runes available to do this (45% proc luck)
-trying to build up or stack a shield will always trigger a heal, that heals 10.15% to 29% of MaxHP
-> The Death Knight's strength is that each shield proc goes hand in hand with a heal which allows him to do both: Selfheal and negate incoming damage.

Current Problems:
-Druids get leather gear with haste rating sometimes. Haste rating is currently useless for tanks and should be reforged to dodge / mastery.
Only 40% of a value can be reforged.

Edit:
Some old posts in the forums claim that when Savage Defense is up you no longer gain
-rage
-vengeance

So I went to Hyjal, grabbed one of the NPCs there and tested that.
Result:
You DO gain rage even when Savage Defense is up.
You DO gain vengeance even when Savage Defense is up.

Kommentar von Superchief

It's amusing to see all the theory crafting and math on this but in the end this is just flat out pathetic compared to Death Strike which heals you AND gives you an absorb shield, which is often overlapped by consecutive Death Strikes.

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Wilde Verteidigung

Wilde Verteidigung

Jedes Mal, wenn Ihr in Bärengestalt einen unregelmäßigen kritischen Treffer erzielt, besteht eine Chance von 50%, den Effekt 'Wilde Verteidigung' zu gewinnen, der 10 sec lang körperlichen Schaden in Höhe von 35% Eurer Angriffskraft absorbiert.

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Wert: 36
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